I'd say yes to what you've proposed, with a couple of modifications. First, my experience in the progressive church is that the word "sin" is avoided, unless quickly followed by progressive-friendly modifiers. The sin of... white supremacy, or patriarchy, or hate rhetoric. Second, do progressives really believe in an after-death hell? Or is the evangelistic fervor more oriented toward the 'hell' of social and economic penalty for the sinner in this life? I'm suggesting this because of the potential social cost of espousing any form of Biblical hell, but I don't know what is actually believed in people's hearts.
What both sides have in common, I think, is a sense of revulsion or disgust about eating with sinners or washing their feet. However 'sinner' is defined.
I assume that this may constitute its own series of posts, but I think the phrase “going to hell” confuses the issue. For many, conservative or liberal, it implies hell as a physical place like prison. You commit the crime, then you are convicted and sent to prison (hell). It is applying a human convention and assumption to a divine concept, which I see as misguided. As a progressive Christian, I do believe in “hell,” but I frame it as a state of being, rather than a physical place, and it’s a state of our own creation. Hell is separation from God, and we are the ones who separate ourselves from God. The acts that one might define as “sinful” are simply some of the indicators that we may be separating ourselves from God. But ultimately, that’s a determination for each individual to determine between God and themselves (yes, I know my liberalism is showing). I agree that focusing on eschatology likely is the wrong place to focus, especially because the afterlife and all that it may encompass are probably far beyond our understanding, but I doubt it merely resembles a human prison system (or all-inclusive resort for the heaven equivalent). Time and time again, the Bible reminds me that my focus needs to be on now, today, and the good I can do in the world and for my fellow humans. How that plays out in the afterlife is somewhat secondary in most of the Bible as I read it. For the notion of sin, I want to avoid anything that I believe violates the Greatest Commandment, not for fear of eternal damnation but because it separates me from God and the joy, peace, and fulfillment therein. Sin is as much a problem for me today as in whatever afterlife may follow, perhaps more.
I am a progressive, and I don't believe in hell. I think many of us don't. Why, well for one thing, I understand that most of us, given various circumstances, childhood, genetics, etc.. could do some pretty harmful things. Some folks grow up in healthy situations, and have the resources and often mental health that they are pretty darn good. There are so many things that factor in our behavior. Then there is mental health. Mental illness can lead to "sinful" behavior. Survivial can.. and various perceptions and beliefs can. Trauma symptoms can lead to "sinful" behavior. This is so complex... that it does not make sense to say that God is going to draw the line.. some go here others suffer forever. It is unjust because no one is on a fair playing field. Nothing is fair. So the justice of hell would not be either.
I agree with all that Melinda, and I think God, in love and mercy, takes all that into account. I guess my question is this, following from the post, do you think God is angry about things going on in the world today? Sex trafficking? Abuse? Racism? Sexual assault? Oppression? Anything here that you'd call a "sin"? And if the answer is "yes" then do you have a vision of how God responds to such sins, if at all?
I really don't think God does, not that way. People are so flawed. It is so natural to be greedy, violent, etc.. and I would say that "eye of the needle" living, or Kingdom living like my friend says, is difficult because it isn't what comes naturally. Jesus turns what is natural on its head.. and it is hard to do. I don't believe that eternal punishment is the result of being flawed. I think people want justice, but God sees beyond that and we go to the next life... all of us. At what point does one go to hell.. working for our president? Designing bombs for Lockheed, being too materialistic or apathetic about the plight of others? Or is it the ugly stuff like sexual abuse.. etc.. It really does not make sense. Is it the one that prays to God, asking forgiveness that gets out of it? Is that the insurance policy? Maybe this means my faith does not fit within what is christian..(and i don't normally in this day and age use that word.) However, I have considered myself very evangelistic in the way you described.. I find sin a horrible thing... and structural sin too.. and believe in creating the kingdom here on earth. That is what we are called to do.. so I have spoken up, acted on it.. and my profession in social work has been a part of that. my political fervor a part of that.. faith a part of that.. (and some folks have not been too crazy about me doing this.) As for my own sin, that is also a private thing I deal with... trying to be the best person I can. Hoping I can get through that eye of the needle.
Very interesting. There are Christians who believe that doing bad (unloving) stuff results in suffering to the perpetrator in the long run, and it may last a long time and extend to after death. But they don't think it happens because God punishes. It happens because unloving behavior is part of a pattern of self-induced suffering, and the only way out is to change to a pattern of love. And for some people, that may take a lot of time, some of it after death. But God is always ready to take people who wish they were loving and try to be into God's community of love.
So this kind of non-eternal hell may exist but have nothing to do with God's wrath (as opposed to sorrow) or God's punishment. But your idea that this merits evangelism still holds, Richard. It's a very good point of view.
As I see it, liberals (myself very much included) are not too good at Evangelism, except maybe in written form. We tend to be either reluctant to evangelize directly (group I'm in), or express evangelism in an angry, attacking form. Rather than gentle, non-judging conversation and simple expression of beliefs about what leads to flourishing for all.
When considering the various ‘Christian visions of Sin’, either Conservative, Progressive or otherwise, it’s important to consider its cultural evolution as a concept. In early Semitic and biblical cosmology, Bronze Age ‘Sheol’, was quite different than the early Church/Patristic and Medieval conceptions. This is due to the limitations and semiotics of language and translation. The propagation of ECT theology, is essentially a ‘Power Over' move, where the fear of punishment is the motivational energy driving soteriology. But in essence, the Good News of the Gospel and the ‘Zoe Life’ that Jesus offers and embodies, is victory over that that fear and the limitations of hominid biology. It’s almost as if the [punitive concept of Hell] is a psychological and eschatological projection forwards of our limited estrangement from the Divine, i.e. – the ‘Knowledge of Good and Evil’, where are caught in our own ‘Mobius Loop’ of destruction and hopelessness. This is why John's apocalyptic vision is so transcendently illuminating, where Death & the Devil are ultimately destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Hell is often generated by the self and propagated onto others, (on a massive scale) it is a mirror of our own internal confliction. Jesus felt that confliction in his own body/humanity and communicates directly to us through that, through his teachings, parables and ultimately his example via the journey of The Passion, as an indictment of our limited understanding and condition. Sadly, when confronted with Real Love, we corporately kill it. But the Creator, rather than the Creature, has the final say, and Hell will not hold for our twisted satisfaction.
I'd say yes to what you've proposed, with a couple of modifications. First, my experience in the progressive church is that the word "sin" is avoided, unless quickly followed by progressive-friendly modifiers. The sin of... white supremacy, or patriarchy, or hate rhetoric. Second, do progressives really believe in an after-death hell? Or is the evangelistic fervor more oriented toward the 'hell' of social and economic penalty for the sinner in this life? I'm suggesting this because of the potential social cost of espousing any form of Biblical hell, but I don't know what is actually believed in people's hearts.
What both sides have in common, I think, is a sense of revulsion or disgust about eating with sinners or washing their feet. However 'sinner' is defined.
I assume that this may constitute its own series of posts, but I think the phrase “going to hell” confuses the issue. For many, conservative or liberal, it implies hell as a physical place like prison. You commit the crime, then you are convicted and sent to prison (hell). It is applying a human convention and assumption to a divine concept, which I see as misguided. As a progressive Christian, I do believe in “hell,” but I frame it as a state of being, rather than a physical place, and it’s a state of our own creation. Hell is separation from God, and we are the ones who separate ourselves from God. The acts that one might define as “sinful” are simply some of the indicators that we may be separating ourselves from God. But ultimately, that’s a determination for each individual to determine between God and themselves (yes, I know my liberalism is showing). I agree that focusing on eschatology likely is the wrong place to focus, especially because the afterlife and all that it may encompass are probably far beyond our understanding, but I doubt it merely resembles a human prison system (or all-inclusive resort for the heaven equivalent). Time and time again, the Bible reminds me that my focus needs to be on now, today, and the good I can do in the world and for my fellow humans. How that plays out in the afterlife is somewhat secondary in most of the Bible as I read it. For the notion of sin, I want to avoid anything that I believe violates the Greatest Commandment, not for fear of eternal damnation but because it separates me from God and the joy, peace, and fulfillment therein. Sin is as much a problem for me today as in whatever afterlife may follow, perhaps more.
I am a progressive, and I don't believe in hell. I think many of us don't. Why, well for one thing, I understand that most of us, given various circumstances, childhood, genetics, etc.. could do some pretty harmful things. Some folks grow up in healthy situations, and have the resources and often mental health that they are pretty darn good. There are so many things that factor in our behavior. Then there is mental health. Mental illness can lead to "sinful" behavior. Survivial can.. and various perceptions and beliefs can. Trauma symptoms can lead to "sinful" behavior. This is so complex... that it does not make sense to say that God is going to draw the line.. some go here others suffer forever. It is unjust because no one is on a fair playing field. Nothing is fair. So the justice of hell would not be either.
I agree with all that Melinda, and I think God, in love and mercy, takes all that into account. I guess my question is this, following from the post, do you think God is angry about things going on in the world today? Sex trafficking? Abuse? Racism? Sexual assault? Oppression? Anything here that you'd call a "sin"? And if the answer is "yes" then do you have a vision of how God responds to such sins, if at all?
I really don't think God does, not that way. People are so flawed. It is so natural to be greedy, violent, etc.. and I would say that "eye of the needle" living, or Kingdom living like my friend says, is difficult because it isn't what comes naturally. Jesus turns what is natural on its head.. and it is hard to do. I don't believe that eternal punishment is the result of being flawed. I think people want justice, but God sees beyond that and we go to the next life... all of us. At what point does one go to hell.. working for our president? Designing bombs for Lockheed, being too materialistic or apathetic about the plight of others? Or is it the ugly stuff like sexual abuse.. etc.. It really does not make sense. Is it the one that prays to God, asking forgiveness that gets out of it? Is that the insurance policy? Maybe this means my faith does not fit within what is christian..(and i don't normally in this day and age use that word.) However, I have considered myself very evangelistic in the way you described.. I find sin a horrible thing... and structural sin too.. and believe in creating the kingdom here on earth. That is what we are called to do.. so I have spoken up, acted on it.. and my profession in social work has been a part of that. my political fervor a part of that.. faith a part of that.. (and some folks have not been too crazy about me doing this.) As for my own sin, that is also a private thing I deal with... trying to be the best person I can. Hoping I can get through that eye of the needle.
Very interesting. There are Christians who believe that doing bad (unloving) stuff results in suffering to the perpetrator in the long run, and it may last a long time and extend to after death. But they don't think it happens because God punishes. It happens because unloving behavior is part of a pattern of self-induced suffering, and the only way out is to change to a pattern of love. And for some people, that may take a lot of time, some of it after death. But God is always ready to take people who wish they were loving and try to be into God's community of love.
So this kind of non-eternal hell may exist but have nothing to do with God's wrath (as opposed to sorrow) or God's punishment. But your idea that this merits evangelism still holds, Richard. It's a very good point of view.
As I see it, liberals (myself very much included) are not too good at Evangelism, except maybe in written form. We tend to be either reluctant to evangelize directly (group I'm in), or express evangelism in an angry, attacking form. Rather than gentle, non-judging conversation and simple expression of beliefs about what leads to flourishing for all.
When considering the various ‘Christian visions of Sin’, either Conservative, Progressive or otherwise, it’s important to consider its cultural evolution as a concept. In early Semitic and biblical cosmology, Bronze Age ‘Sheol’, was quite different than the early Church/Patristic and Medieval conceptions. This is due to the limitations and semiotics of language and translation. The propagation of ECT theology, is essentially a ‘Power Over' move, where the fear of punishment is the motivational energy driving soteriology. But in essence, the Good News of the Gospel and the ‘Zoe Life’ that Jesus offers and embodies, is victory over that that fear and the limitations of hominid biology. It’s almost as if the [punitive concept of Hell] is a psychological and eschatological projection forwards of our limited estrangement from the Divine, i.e. – the ‘Knowledge of Good and Evil’, where are caught in our own ‘Mobius Loop’ of destruction and hopelessness. This is why John's apocalyptic vision is so transcendently illuminating, where Death & the Devil are ultimately destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Hell is often generated by the self and propagated onto others, (on a massive scale) it is a mirror of our own internal confliction. Jesus felt that confliction in his own body/humanity and communicates directly to us through that, through his teachings, parables and ultimately his example via the journey of The Passion, as an indictment of our limited understanding and condition. Sadly, when confronted with Real Love, we corporately kill it. But the Creator, rather than the Creature, has the final say, and Hell will not hold for our twisted satisfaction.