Richard, while I can appreciate you sharing that there are different perspectives on this issue, this is one of those things that not everyone can be right about or just choose an opinion or philosophy and go with that. It opens up too much of our humanness to make the choice we personally want. While none of us are able to sit in the judgement seat (though some try) as to what that point of "falling from grace" is, I was looking for you to point to scripture instead to at least confirm from that authority that it can happen. 2 Peter 2:20 and 2 Peter 3:17 are two scriptures that directly debunk the thought of OSAS (once saved, always saved). If there was no ability to fall from a "saved" situation, there would be no need for the warning of such.
If I were to think strategically, from the perspective of spiritual warfare and the different generals, I would absolutely attribute the OSAS ideology to Satan. Let people think they can't fall from grace and re-enter an unsaved situation. How better to recapture those that he had lost to the Lord?
My concern about the "once saved, always saved" doctrine--what I think of as "one and done" theology, is that it gives license to the worst excesses of hypocrisy and smugness among the faithful. If a person believes that they are "saved" and cannot ever be "unsaved", what prevents them from behaving in ways that are offensive to God and justifying it because being a "saved" person, it's what God wants?
As a practicing Episcopalian, I believe that salvation is a daily process. I'm saved not by one big dramatic revelation, but by choosing every day to accept Jesus as Lord and asking Him to help me live as he taught us to live.
It is not a question of can we fall from God’s grace but can you continue to accept it. The grace is unconditional. It is a gift; a gift that God promises not to remove from His side. A gift can be accepted; a gift can be rejected; a gift can be returned after initial acceptance.
There is scripture to back up the idea. Belief and confession is what Paul states are the conditions of salvation. So the simple answer is have you stopped believing and confessing?
Israel has an eternal covenant, but they can reject it. If God ignores our rejection of Him He would be violating our free will. God does not take away gifts.
If it has to be earned or maintained daily it’s not grace. Salvation, receiving & accepting Jesus’s salvation, is simply & most importantly the first step. When we accept Jesus as our Lord & savior we are in. The thief on the cross next to Jesus had no time to repent, confess, daily devote himself again & again, be kind to others, sell all he owned & give to the poor, etc etc. No his entrance into heaven with Jesus was based on his acceptance of Jesus as the Son of God & Jesus’s unearned gift of grace that gave him passage to eternity.
The reality of Jesus is & always has been the most uncomfortable truth we will ever face. Our human, satan inspired nature of control & understanding sees people accept Jesus & proceed to sin as if given a blank check with some twisted idea that that person is going to disgrace the Lord, or make us look bad, or some other earthly fear based idea. Never once has the Lord been disgraced, the people who claim to follow Him have proven themselves hypocritical & untrustworthy but never Jesus.
By accepting Jesus as Lord we are in & any time after that decision is left to the Holy Spirit to work out our salvation, as Paul calls it. The thief on the cross had no time to be purified because to God he was purified. The real issue comes to do we behave in a way that is salt & light to the world. For most Christians that answer is no, at least that’s how it looks from my judgement seat yet that’s not the point.
Fear based purification & salvation isn’t purifying or saving at all.
Interesting that you were raised to believe you could fall away, and that this belief led to insecurity and fear. I was raised in a staunchly Reformed community. I also feared and felt insecure about my salvation. If salvation was only God's work--I reasoned--then what if God didn't pick me? Could I hear the message, want to be saved, and yet be powerless to choose God?
I was terrified to think that I could be left behind as one of the "unelect".
Fear and doubt are the natural human responses to the audacious grace of God. Our flesh and the Devil work on us and cast doubt on our salvation: "Did God really say. . . "
In my case I filled in the blank with:
That he so loved the world?
That the chief of sinners could be forgiven?
That my sins are far as the East is from the West?
For some reason, the weakness of Protestantism really stood out in this post. I can clearly picture you standing there observing the inmates and watching your "pupils" not being focused on the central theme of the Gospel...redemption by God from our fallen nature/spiritual renewal and restoration of life, but over a scholarly debate on the nature of grace that has the potential to dissolve into a downright fist fight or civil war.
The Gospel is supposed to be Good News to the captives and I would have to say that somewhere along the line we have lost the plot....
So much trauma, judgement, fear, about being in our out of some small group, mainly born into the Western world. I agree, grace is the freedom from all these practices and towards embracing the belief that we all receive grace, regardless of where or when we were born, and what beliefs we have been taught to believe.
Richard, while I can appreciate you sharing that there are different perspectives on this issue, this is one of those things that not everyone can be right about or just choose an opinion or philosophy and go with that. It opens up too much of our humanness to make the choice we personally want. While none of us are able to sit in the judgement seat (though some try) as to what that point of "falling from grace" is, I was looking for you to point to scripture instead to at least confirm from that authority that it can happen. 2 Peter 2:20 and 2 Peter 3:17 are two scriptures that directly debunk the thought of OSAS (once saved, always saved). If there was no ability to fall from a "saved" situation, there would be no need for the warning of such.
If I were to think strategically, from the perspective of spiritual warfare and the different generals, I would absolutely attribute the OSAS ideology to Satan. Let people think they can't fall from grace and re-enter an unsaved situation. How better to recapture those that he had lost to the Lord?
My concern about the "once saved, always saved" doctrine--what I think of as "one and done" theology, is that it gives license to the worst excesses of hypocrisy and smugness among the faithful. If a person believes that they are "saved" and cannot ever be "unsaved", what prevents them from behaving in ways that are offensive to God and justifying it because being a "saved" person, it's what God wants?
As a practicing Episcopalian, I believe that salvation is a daily process. I'm saved not by one big dramatic revelation, but by choosing every day to accept Jesus as Lord and asking Him to help me live as he taught us to live.
It is not a question of can we fall from God’s grace but can you continue to accept it. The grace is unconditional. It is a gift; a gift that God promises not to remove from His side. A gift can be accepted; a gift can be rejected; a gift can be returned after initial acceptance.
There is scripture to back up the idea. Belief and confession is what Paul states are the conditions of salvation. So the simple answer is have you stopped believing and confessing?
Israel has an eternal covenant, but they can reject it. If God ignores our rejection of Him He would be violating our free will. God does not take away gifts.
If it has to be earned or maintained daily it’s not grace. Salvation, receiving & accepting Jesus’s salvation, is simply & most importantly the first step. When we accept Jesus as our Lord & savior we are in. The thief on the cross next to Jesus had no time to repent, confess, daily devote himself again & again, be kind to others, sell all he owned & give to the poor, etc etc. No his entrance into heaven with Jesus was based on his acceptance of Jesus as the Son of God & Jesus’s unearned gift of grace that gave him passage to eternity.
The reality of Jesus is & always has been the most uncomfortable truth we will ever face. Our human, satan inspired nature of control & understanding sees people accept Jesus & proceed to sin as if given a blank check with some twisted idea that that person is going to disgrace the Lord, or make us look bad, or some other earthly fear based idea. Never once has the Lord been disgraced, the people who claim to follow Him have proven themselves hypocritical & untrustworthy but never Jesus.
By accepting Jesus as Lord we are in & any time after that decision is left to the Holy Spirit to work out our salvation, as Paul calls it. The thief on the cross had no time to be purified because to God he was purified. The real issue comes to do we behave in a way that is salt & light to the world. For most Christians that answer is no, at least that’s how it looks from my judgement seat yet that’s not the point.
Fear based purification & salvation isn’t purifying or saving at all.
Interesting that you were raised to believe you could fall away, and that this belief led to insecurity and fear. I was raised in a staunchly Reformed community. I also feared and felt insecure about my salvation. If salvation was only God's work--I reasoned--then what if God didn't pick me? Could I hear the message, want to be saved, and yet be powerless to choose God?
I was terrified to think that I could be left behind as one of the "unelect".
Fear and doubt are the natural human responses to the audacious grace of God. Our flesh and the Devil work on us and cast doubt on our salvation: "Did God really say. . . "
In my case I filled in the blank with:
That he so loved the world?
That the chief of sinners could be forgiven?
That my sins are far as the East is from the West?
For some reason, the weakness of Protestantism really stood out in this post. I can clearly picture you standing there observing the inmates and watching your "pupils" not being focused on the central theme of the Gospel...redemption by God from our fallen nature/spiritual renewal and restoration of life, but over a scholarly debate on the nature of grace that has the potential to dissolve into a downright fist fight or civil war.
The Gospel is supposed to be Good News to the captives and I would have to say that somewhere along the line we have lost the plot....
So much trauma, judgement, fear, about being in our out of some small group, mainly born into the Western world. I agree, grace is the freedom from all these practices and towards embracing the belief that we all receive grace, regardless of where or when we were born, and what beliefs we have been taught to believe.