I've seen a similar inclination in prison settings. I've wondered if part of it is a desire for secret knowledge and power. When so much of your life is marked by others telling you that your knowledge and conduct are lacking, the feeling that you know a secret they don't is powerful.
I read this passage as a sly commentary on surrounding mythologies. "Oh yeah, Gilgamesh existed, and other people with superhuman strength. Not gonna argue they didn't. All of their accomplishments and feats are worthy of half a verse on page 6 when compared to what God does in the life of the faithful He calls to himself."
Since the Hebrew word for Adam - "adam" (אדם) can mean more to do with [Man] as a ‘Species’ or ‘Humankind’ in general, as well as "adamah" (אדמה) which means "ground" or "earth," reflecting the idea that Adam was created from the dust of the earth, we can be confident that these were probably not Angelic or Demonic hybrids, but simply a Bronze Age nomenclature that fancifully needed to draw distinctions, in order to solidify its own identity as a people through whom ‘The Covenant’ would eventually come. Habitually embracing Biblical esoterica is like always trying to go through the ‘side door’ into sacred space, rather than through the front door, which is wonderfully open to everyone – Jesus doesn’t say - “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life…Now, follow me down the Rabbit hole”.
Sometime I think we reduce the story to a set of doctrinal beliefs…not that these are not true… but sometimes we need a sense of enchantment to feel alive … sometimes we need the Bible to come alive, to live the adventure of it … a bit like the above mentioned ‘family scrapbook’ … a land of kings, superpowers, romance. and GIANTS!!!! 😂😂😂
I don’t believe there is a secret knowledge, only the knowledge that is already revealed through the Jesus story which is pretty incredible if we stop and think about it, but we only see a glimpse of the full picture…
Michael Heiser is interesting, as he has a lot of work about the 1st century world view, he talks about other equally perplexing passages, such as wearing head coverings to protect women from the Angels etc. …the apostle Paul wasn’t lost down a rabbit hole, his mind wasn’t shaped by a western world view, but our minds are… it is interesting to be open, to reconsider how our western minds might have numbed our sense of enchantment…
It's the exact same obsession that fuels "young earth creationism." And it's just what Paul (or endless speculation might identify as someone else lol) warns against in I Timothy 1:4. Being in prison I'm sure fuels a unique psychology since it's such a difficult situation for any human to be in. "Young earth creationists" don't really have that excuse (though of course famous YEC Kent Hovind did end up in prison).
I don't think it's unique to prisons. I've been in Sunday schools and small groups with similar rabbit hole fascinations. Even the Bible Project spent a significant amount of time in their podcast discussing this specific passage and listeners related questions. For the "sons of God" Seth v. Cain, I perhaps get a little nervous about that being interpreted as some humans (or races of people) being superior? Isn't that sort of how the whole curse of Ham mess got to us?
This is another reason I have come to understand scripture as a collection of stories telling a narrative story of a relationship with the Mystery Underlying Underlying Creation, whom we call "God". Scripture has far more in common with a family scrapbook than a history textbook.
I too have been a prison chaplain. But, sadly, although I am still in my 40s, I do not currently have the capacity, or the energy at the mo to return to prison ministry - I feel in some sort of dark prison of my own. But, prison work, has been the greatest, most interesting, precious, most profound wrk I have ever been involved with.
Prison ministry was like a treasure chest of revelation, insights, wisdom and stories, that I believe are forever stored up in the kingdom of heaven. Stories I would not dare not cast to pigs. Satan cannot bust this treasure chest open, he cannot steals this treasure from my experience how ever hard he tries.
I can imagine how this passage in the above post evokes curiosity. It does in most humans, but especially those that are trapped by the systems of the world. It taps in to this sense of ‘eternity’ being in the hearts of men and our lost, but insatiable desire for enchantment, the thirst for the spectacular and the reality of a spiritual dimension.
The late Micheal Heiser has some interesting scholarship to say about this passage and the meaning of the phrase ‘sons of god’ - well worth an exploration for those that are happy to get lost down rabbit holes!
I've seen a similar inclination in prison settings. I've wondered if part of it is a desire for secret knowledge and power. When so much of your life is marked by others telling you that your knowledge and conduct are lacking, the feeling that you know a secret they don't is powerful.
I read this passage as a sly commentary on surrounding mythologies. "Oh yeah, Gilgamesh existed, and other people with superhuman strength. Not gonna argue they didn't. All of their accomplishments and feats are worthy of half a verse on page 6 when compared to what God does in the life of the faithful He calls to himself."
Since the Hebrew word for Adam - "adam" (אדם) can mean more to do with [Man] as a ‘Species’ or ‘Humankind’ in general, as well as "adamah" (אדמה) which means "ground" or "earth," reflecting the idea that Adam was created from the dust of the earth, we can be confident that these were probably not Angelic or Demonic hybrids, but simply a Bronze Age nomenclature that fancifully needed to draw distinctions, in order to solidify its own identity as a people through whom ‘The Covenant’ would eventually come. Habitually embracing Biblical esoterica is like always trying to go through the ‘side door’ into sacred space, rather than through the front door, which is wonderfully open to everyone – Jesus doesn’t say - “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life…Now, follow me down the Rabbit hole”.
Sometime I think we reduce the story to a set of doctrinal beliefs…not that these are not true… but sometimes we need a sense of enchantment to feel alive … sometimes we need the Bible to come alive, to live the adventure of it … a bit like the above mentioned ‘family scrapbook’ … a land of kings, superpowers, romance. and GIANTS!!!! 😂😂😂
I don’t believe there is a secret knowledge, only the knowledge that is already revealed through the Jesus story which is pretty incredible if we stop and think about it, but we only see a glimpse of the full picture…
Michael Heiser is interesting, as he has a lot of work about the 1st century world view, he talks about other equally perplexing passages, such as wearing head coverings to protect women from the Angels etc. …the apostle Paul wasn’t lost down a rabbit hole, his mind wasn’t shaped by a western world view, but our minds are… it is interesting to be open, to reconsider how our western minds might have numbed our sense of enchantment…
It's the exact same obsession that fuels "young earth creationism." And it's just what Paul (or endless speculation might identify as someone else lol) warns against in I Timothy 1:4. Being in prison I'm sure fuels a unique psychology since it's such a difficult situation for any human to be in. "Young earth creationists" don't really have that excuse (though of course famous YEC Kent Hovind did end up in prison).
I don't think it's unique to prisons. I've been in Sunday schools and small groups with similar rabbit hole fascinations. Even the Bible Project spent a significant amount of time in their podcast discussing this specific passage and listeners related questions. For the "sons of God" Seth v. Cain, I perhaps get a little nervous about that being interpreted as some humans (or races of people) being superior? Isn't that sort of how the whole curse of Ham mess got to us?
This is another reason I have come to understand scripture as a collection of stories telling a narrative story of a relationship with the Mystery Underlying Underlying Creation, whom we call "God". Scripture has far more in common with a family scrapbook than a history textbook.
I guess the stuff that really matters, whether in the UK or USA, a UK prison, or a US one is that Jesus IS alive…
I too have been a prison chaplain. But, sadly, although I am still in my 40s, I do not currently have the capacity, or the energy at the mo to return to prison ministry - I feel in some sort of dark prison of my own. But, prison work, has been the greatest, most interesting, precious, most profound wrk I have ever been involved with.
Prison ministry was like a treasure chest of revelation, insights, wisdom and stories, that I believe are forever stored up in the kingdom of heaven. Stories I would not dare not cast to pigs. Satan cannot bust this treasure chest open, he cannot steals this treasure from my experience how ever hard he tries.
I can imagine how this passage in the above post evokes curiosity. It does in most humans, but especially those that are trapped by the systems of the world. It taps in to this sense of ‘eternity’ being in the hearts of men and our lost, but insatiable desire for enchantment, the thirst for the spectacular and the reality of a spiritual dimension.
The late Micheal Heiser has some interesting scholarship to say about this passage and the meaning of the phrase ‘sons of god’ - well worth an exploration for those that are happy to get lost down rabbit holes!
Selah…
In your piece on Bonhoeffer's conversion, you speak of his ministry in the "Wedding parish." Where is that located? London?
Berlin