There is another concern... the anger/woundedness/hurt/hostility/skittishness of many none-verts. Many were driven out. The parting of ways is often dramatic in its impact, and many who left did not merely 'shake the dust from their sandles' and move on.
I live in the UK and since COVID I’ve been a non regular attendee at church. I still believe but most of the churches in the UK are charismatic/mild evangelical, Catholic or trying-to-be socially relevant (sermons on climate change or welcoming refugees if not out and out gblt affirming) and none of these appeal. I am socially conservative, theologically conservative and not ready to swim the Tiber. As I have aged I have become very sceptical of charismatic teachings and modern worship music styles I find trite and often banal. My kids are doing sports now on a Sunday morning & I am not sure what would get me back in the pew and away from the touch line.
Probably so many reasons why this is. Is it the disconnect from the gospel and what evangelicalism actually preaches and practices? This is certainly why I left the fundamentalism. I personally had to spend years seeking what I believed to be a faith that was consistent with scripture... which also contributed to my choice of social work. But in modernity. the helping professions that don't get one rich (like a doctor) is scoffed at more than ever. Is it the disconnect from modernity's values, and how enticing this self-pleasure is? Is it that it just does not seem relevant in modernity? If the church answered what ails us, as you discuss in your other blogs, maybe there would be more hope.. but for the most part, sleeping in on a Sunday morning is a better cure. Please, keep the discussion going.
I think it is all of those things. I think evangelicalism’s wide support (though I think it’s decreased some in the past couple years) of a deeply polarizing figure like Donald Trump has disillusioned a lot of people from the faith. Modernity has also raised legitimate questions about the veracity of the Bible and the faith. But mostly, I think it’s the perception that Christians are full of it, hypocritical, have a backwards and damaging view of sexuality, even toward the traditional LGBT sexual identity, etc. that makes a lot of laypeople say, “no, thanks.” I think we have to face those realities head on and work through the implications if we want to move forward and win anyone over.
The church we were attending had an afternoon service which fitted in with our morning activities. The pastor had a very nuanced approach to the gospel - a low anthropology if you will - that no matter how hard we try we are still slaves to sin and we tend to fall and we need to lean on Jesus for everything.
Services started with a psalm and with a mixture of older hymns and newer songs.
Services felt like a place to rest and restores.
Now we have a new pastor, services are back to the mornings, sermons are longer and a “spirit life” course is being run - to equip us all in the power of the spirit as the apostles had in the book of acts……
A change in leadership can make a huge different.. and it sounds like they may have a different perspective on the purpose of Sunday worship. Is it a time for rest, or is it bootcamp for Monday? It could be both, if done right.... but ya, it sounds like church for you now is a bit like going to school.
I don’t like coming away from church feeling like I have more stuff to do; read my bible more and in the way the sermon says I should, pray more, give time for a particular community cause, give more, tithe more, commit more, serve more etc etc.... those sermons with lists in them.... I don’t recall seeing them in the church fathers or in the gospels or epistles...
Each time I hear one of my Christian brothers talk about “bringing people to Christ” I ask them about the people who have left the church. Every time I talk with someone about Jesus, whether by name or not, they almost immediately begin talking about church. I usually interrupt them & say wrong 6 letter ‘c’ word or that I’m not talking about their idea of church. This is because “the church” has done more to damage people then heathens ever could. This is why I believe that there are many corporate endeavors that occur on sunday mornings yet not many churches. I also hold a belief that there aren’t many marriages, as specified in scripture, as there are legal civil unions.
When “the church” started loosing their influence in communities they lost the money that came from that social influence so “churches”, who once taught & followed scriptural doctrine, began to loosen their requirements so that the money would come back. It wasn’t so that more souls would be saved. Ex. When corporate organizations, who once stood strong on the gospel, began celebrating technical Biblical sin sure they appeared more inclusive as Jesus was inclusive so attendance drop slowed down but they have lost their moral authority which the transformation of Christ gives us. It’s becoming apparent that calling sin not a sin isn’t a good recipe for sharing the gospel. Money grabs & fear isn’t the way of the church that Jesus came to establish, who would’ve known.
On the other hand there are organizations who’s leaders rail on about how wrong the formers are even going to the extreme of calling out pastors by name publicly. In both cases they both think they are right & the arbiters of truth. What both miss is that Jesus is the One who is right. He is the Way, the Truth & the Light. The enemy divides us, it is Jesus who should unite us.
The Good News of Jesus transforms hearts & lives. Sharing that transformation is the Great Commission. That can look like bringing people to Christ & it can, & should, look like loving as Christ loved us. We must separate the person from the organization. Building attendance does not equate to association with Jesus, how we love one another determines if we are, in fact, His disciples. When we are making a determined effort to love as He loves we will find our tribe of other lovers as Christ loves & that is the church as defined by the in person disciples of Jesus.
There is another concern... the anger/woundedness/hurt/hostility/skittishness of many none-verts. Many were driven out. The parting of ways is often dramatic in its impact, and many who left did not merely 'shake the dust from their sandles' and move on.
I live in the UK and since COVID I’ve been a non regular attendee at church. I still believe but most of the churches in the UK are charismatic/mild evangelical, Catholic or trying-to-be socially relevant (sermons on climate change or welcoming refugees if not out and out gblt affirming) and none of these appeal. I am socially conservative, theologically conservative and not ready to swim the Tiber. As I have aged I have become very sceptical of charismatic teachings and modern worship music styles I find trite and often banal. My kids are doing sports now on a Sunday morning & I am not sure what would get me back in the pew and away from the touch line.
Probably so many reasons why this is. Is it the disconnect from the gospel and what evangelicalism actually preaches and practices? This is certainly why I left the fundamentalism. I personally had to spend years seeking what I believed to be a faith that was consistent with scripture... which also contributed to my choice of social work. But in modernity. the helping professions that don't get one rich (like a doctor) is scoffed at more than ever. Is it the disconnect from modernity's values, and how enticing this self-pleasure is? Is it that it just does not seem relevant in modernity? If the church answered what ails us, as you discuss in your other blogs, maybe there would be more hope.. but for the most part, sleeping in on a Sunday morning is a better cure. Please, keep the discussion going.
I think it is all of those things. I think evangelicalism’s wide support (though I think it’s decreased some in the past couple years) of a deeply polarizing figure like Donald Trump has disillusioned a lot of people from the faith. Modernity has also raised legitimate questions about the veracity of the Bible and the faith. But mostly, I think it’s the perception that Christians are full of it, hypocritical, have a backwards and damaging view of sexuality, even toward the traditional LGBT sexual identity, etc. that makes a lot of laypeople say, “no, thanks.” I think we have to face those realities head on and work through the implications if we want to move forward and win anyone over.
The church we were attending had an afternoon service which fitted in with our morning activities. The pastor had a very nuanced approach to the gospel - a low anthropology if you will - that no matter how hard we try we are still slaves to sin and we tend to fall and we need to lean on Jesus for everything.
Services started with a psalm and with a mixture of older hymns and newer songs.
Services felt like a place to rest and restores.
Now we have a new pastor, services are back to the mornings, sermons are longer and a “spirit life” course is being run - to equip us all in the power of the spirit as the apostles had in the book of acts……
Sounds exhausting…… count me out
A change in leadership can make a huge different.. and it sounds like they may have a different perspective on the purpose of Sunday worship. Is it a time for rest, or is it bootcamp for Monday? It could be both, if done right.... but ya, it sounds like church for you now is a bit like going to school.
I don’t like coming away from church feeling like I have more stuff to do; read my bible more and in the way the sermon says I should, pray more, give time for a particular community cause, give more, tithe more, commit more, serve more etc etc.... those sermons with lists in them.... I don’t recall seeing them in the church fathers or in the gospels or epistles...
Thanks for confirming something I have long suspected.
Each time I hear one of my Christian brothers talk about “bringing people to Christ” I ask them about the people who have left the church. Every time I talk with someone about Jesus, whether by name or not, they almost immediately begin talking about church. I usually interrupt them & say wrong 6 letter ‘c’ word or that I’m not talking about their idea of church. This is because “the church” has done more to damage people then heathens ever could. This is why I believe that there are many corporate endeavors that occur on sunday mornings yet not many churches. I also hold a belief that there aren’t many marriages, as specified in scripture, as there are legal civil unions.
When “the church” started loosing their influence in communities they lost the money that came from that social influence so “churches”, who once taught & followed scriptural doctrine, began to loosen their requirements so that the money would come back. It wasn’t so that more souls would be saved. Ex. When corporate organizations, who once stood strong on the gospel, began celebrating technical Biblical sin sure they appeared more inclusive as Jesus was inclusive so attendance drop slowed down but they have lost their moral authority which the transformation of Christ gives us. It’s becoming apparent that calling sin not a sin isn’t a good recipe for sharing the gospel. Money grabs & fear isn’t the way of the church that Jesus came to establish, who would’ve known.
On the other hand there are organizations who’s leaders rail on about how wrong the formers are even going to the extreme of calling out pastors by name publicly. In both cases they both think they are right & the arbiters of truth. What both miss is that Jesus is the One who is right. He is the Way, the Truth & the Light. The enemy divides us, it is Jesus who should unite us.
The Good News of Jesus transforms hearts & lives. Sharing that transformation is the Great Commission. That can look like bringing people to Christ & it can, & should, look like loving as Christ loved us. We must separate the person from the organization. Building attendance does not equate to association with Jesus, how we love one another determines if we are, in fact, His disciples. When we are making a determined effort to love as He loves we will find our tribe of other lovers as Christ loves & that is the church as defined by the in person disciples of Jesus.