I have never hear it put this way before. As a former Evangelical, your descriptions of both these Theological Worlds seem attractive. My brain has been so poisoned against these that it is difficult to move in that direction. My hesitation is that both these traditions, from what I have heard, demand strict control of your beliefs. Their thought-police are even more severe than the Evangelical's, and that is not a low bar.
This is new wine for me, and I will keep it in a new wineskin and let it age there before I attempt to allow it to mingle with my current Theological World.
I am slowly acclimating to your $50 words. Thanks for your insights.
Yes, I resonate with what you have said. I have had times where I have been drawn to Catholic and Orthodox spirituality at various points in my life - I think union with God is something I seek.
However. I have grown up and historically been immersed in evangelical, Pentecostal and charismatic culture and encounters with God are also sought in these spaces. I myself have experienced tremendous power from the Holy Spirit in these spaces.
Having said that, ironically, one of the most memorable experiences I have had is attending a charismatic Catholic Eucharist - what was interesting is (as a non-Catholic) they let me take the bread and the wine. It was welcoming me, not excluding me. I felt no sense of judgement or that I was in the wrong camp. It was tremendous.
I am still drawn to the sense of power in the Pentecostal, charismatic tradition. These churches can vary in emphasis, vary in theological worlds I think. However, I do think generally that more emphasis is on guilt & penal substitution theory. It doesn’t resonate with me. I do not feel guilt, but I feel this tremendous need for redemption. Having said that, people I have known that feel the weight of guilt & judgment do get a sense of release, feel that the gospel is good news when forgiven, so I can see how release from this is their epiphania. It is a language, a set of words that many convicted of major crimes understand, or for a person who has who genuinely has done something significantly wrong and the guilt, regret and shame is overwhelming.
But, the way evangelical preachers preach forgiveness to their audience, as IF this is the answer and ‘the thing’ people are seeking is often missing most people. It is too rigid. It is too punitive. To narrow. It is not their obsessio/epiphania.
I think in terms of soteriology, I once came across Athanasian theology and this provoked something in me. I might look at this again, as it is just a vague thing in my mind …
Finally. I know what you mean about being ‘poisoned’ against Catholicism. I do think so much isn’t right there, however I remember once when I was working in a prison, there was this man who was struggling with the gospel because of the Jesus and Mary story, the immaculate conception. He was wrestling with this. It was a doubt, a barrier to faith for him. But, one day, he attended our group and shared that he had had an encounter with Mary in his cell. He said that she said, in this vision, that the story IS true and this led him to convert to Christianity. He said she appeared as very young. His testimony felt authentic, amazing in fact, his eyes were radiant when he shared this story. It was like he had genuinely had a mystical experience. It provoked me, it widened my perspective on what is actually happening in the spiritual realm.
I also spoke to a monk once about the Saints. And what he shared with me made complete theological sense. He said because they believe in the resurrection, they do not feel they are praying to dead people, but it is merely like asking a friend, or a priest to pray, intercede for for you. They believe they are part of this communion of Saints. In the same way we ask for someone in our church to pray for us, they ask the Saints as they believe they are alive and functioning now, even if it has something of the eternal about it. So, perhaps, in a sense it could be seen that they have an over realised eschatology? This is something that charismatics often get criticised for.
I have just read back this post. What has struck me, is I am dreading trying to go back to church after a very long break. I don’t want to go to hear a sermon. Ours are way too long and the teaching is weak. I want to meet with God tho, with other people and feel like I am part of the communion of Saints. I know I am ‘in Christ’ as an individual, but connecting to others properly in my old church is going to be hard. However, I am not sure if I would fit into any local Catholic Churches and they will not me take the bread and wine anyway! That charismatic Catholic group I found is a long way from home! And, there is not an Orthodox Church anywhere near me!
Give Chapelwood United Methodist in Houston Texas on Greenbay St. a “look see”. The fellowship is very welcoming and inclusive. Several different ministries/worship services are available
There's no doubt that Right and Left politics play an influencing role in the formation of many ‘Theological Worlds’. The evidence of this is all around us. I think potentially though the developmental structure of these positions is dependent upon how one experiences and views the Natural World. If Nature is simply to be rapaciously consumed and used to facilitate our human desires, we disconnect ourselves from an integrated symbiosis that is the Biosphere. Death is a certitude within that, but it is also equally balanced with birth, life and regeneration. It’s almost as if PSA & ECT soteriology is somehow a psychological projection and a kind of guilt mechanism for ‘sins against the planet’ itself. It is a ‘Necrophillic’, as opposed to a ‘Biophillic’ orientation that permeates this hermeneutic from scripture. If I see my brother as ultimately part of myself, an extension of my own corporal being of equal weight and value, (possessing the Imago Dei) then I am perhaps less likely drawn towards punitive Double Predestination scenarios theologically. But we are both the ‘Darkness & Light’, and a brutally honest acknowledgment of that internal contradiction, in the hands of a Living Self-Sacrificial Savior who permeates our consciousness, can reorientate the mind and heart, and set us free to be the integrated persons we were always meant to be. There are general aspects of ‘Biocentrism’ (Robert Lanza, etc…) that I definitely find appealing, but a much deeper dive into the theory is needed to accept that our observations and consciousness itself, creates the universe around us. This does little to address the issues of ‘Theodicy’ on the human plain, and as to whether or not “Evil” and “Suffering” are a figmented projection of one’s own imagination.
Often in the charismatic worship of my church the spiritual experience is “thin” and I see lots of counterfeit spirituality activity going on … I get the depth of orthodoxy and Catholicism theological worlds, but I also sense the holy spirit in my church … it is their optimism that bothers me … that the world will truly become a better place … I am not convinced by this … I am prepared for things in the world to get worse not better … and that is why I think we truly need the communion of the saints … a true refuge … but there isn’t another space I can go to in my area … Jesus help me!
I have never hear it put this way before. As a former Evangelical, your descriptions of both these Theological Worlds seem attractive. My brain has been so poisoned against these that it is difficult to move in that direction. My hesitation is that both these traditions, from what I have heard, demand strict control of your beliefs. Their thought-police are even more severe than the Evangelical's, and that is not a low bar.
This is new wine for me, and I will keep it in a new wineskin and let it age there before I attempt to allow it to mingle with my current Theological World.
I am slowly acclimating to your $50 words. Thanks for your insights.
Yes, I resonate with what you have said. I have had times where I have been drawn to Catholic and Orthodox spirituality at various points in my life - I think union with God is something I seek.
However. I have grown up and historically been immersed in evangelical, Pentecostal and charismatic culture and encounters with God are also sought in these spaces. I myself have experienced tremendous power from the Holy Spirit in these spaces.
Having said that, ironically, one of the most memorable experiences I have had is attending a charismatic Catholic Eucharist - what was interesting is (as a non-Catholic) they let me take the bread and the wine. It was welcoming me, not excluding me. I felt no sense of judgement or that I was in the wrong camp. It was tremendous.
I am still drawn to the sense of power in the Pentecostal, charismatic tradition. These churches can vary in emphasis, vary in theological worlds I think. However, I do think generally that more emphasis is on guilt & penal substitution theory. It doesn’t resonate with me. I do not feel guilt, but I feel this tremendous need for redemption. Having said that, people I have known that feel the weight of guilt & judgment do get a sense of release, feel that the gospel is good news when forgiven, so I can see how release from this is their epiphania. It is a language, a set of words that many convicted of major crimes understand, or for a person who has who genuinely has done something significantly wrong and the guilt, regret and shame is overwhelming.
But, the way evangelical preachers preach forgiveness to their audience, as IF this is the answer and ‘the thing’ people are seeking is often missing most people. It is too rigid. It is too punitive. To narrow. It is not their obsessio/epiphania.
I think in terms of soteriology, I once came across Athanasian theology and this provoked something in me. I might look at this again, as it is just a vague thing in my mind …
Finally. I know what you mean about being ‘poisoned’ against Catholicism. I do think so much isn’t right there, however I remember once when I was working in a prison, there was this man who was struggling with the gospel because of the Jesus and Mary story, the immaculate conception. He was wrestling with this. It was a doubt, a barrier to faith for him. But, one day, he attended our group and shared that he had had an encounter with Mary in his cell. He said that she said, in this vision, that the story IS true and this led him to convert to Christianity. He said she appeared as very young. His testimony felt authentic, amazing in fact, his eyes were radiant when he shared this story. It was like he had genuinely had a mystical experience. It provoked me, it widened my perspective on what is actually happening in the spiritual realm.
I also spoke to a monk once about the Saints. And what he shared with me made complete theological sense. He said because they believe in the resurrection, they do not feel they are praying to dead people, but it is merely like asking a friend, or a priest to pray, intercede for for you. They believe they are part of this communion of Saints. In the same way we ask for someone in our church to pray for us, they ask the Saints as they believe they are alive and functioning now, even if it has something of the eternal about it. So, perhaps, in a sense it could be seen that they have an over realised eschatology? This is something that charismatics often get criticised for.
This is all so fascinating.
This is super neat! I'm having fun learning these
I have just read back this post. What has struck me, is I am dreading trying to go back to church after a very long break. I don’t want to go to hear a sermon. Ours are way too long and the teaching is weak. I want to meet with God tho, with other people and feel like I am part of the communion of Saints. I know I am ‘in Christ’ as an individual, but connecting to others properly in my old church is going to be hard. However, I am not sure if I would fit into any local Catholic Churches and they will not me take the bread and wine anyway! That charismatic Catholic group I found is a long way from home! And, there is not an Orthodox Church anywhere near me!
I need to try and work this all out!
Give Chapelwood United Methodist in Houston Texas on Greenbay St. a “look see”. The fellowship is very welcoming and inclusive. Several different ministries/worship services are available
I’ve been a member for several years
MS
There's no doubt that Right and Left politics play an influencing role in the formation of many ‘Theological Worlds’. The evidence of this is all around us. I think potentially though the developmental structure of these positions is dependent upon how one experiences and views the Natural World. If Nature is simply to be rapaciously consumed and used to facilitate our human desires, we disconnect ourselves from an integrated symbiosis that is the Biosphere. Death is a certitude within that, but it is also equally balanced with birth, life and regeneration. It’s almost as if PSA & ECT soteriology is somehow a psychological projection and a kind of guilt mechanism for ‘sins against the planet’ itself. It is a ‘Necrophillic’, as opposed to a ‘Biophillic’ orientation that permeates this hermeneutic from scripture. If I see my brother as ultimately part of myself, an extension of my own corporal being of equal weight and value, (possessing the Imago Dei) then I am perhaps less likely drawn towards punitive Double Predestination scenarios theologically. But we are both the ‘Darkness & Light’, and a brutally honest acknowledgment of that internal contradiction, in the hands of a Living Self-Sacrificial Savior who permeates our consciousness, can reorientate the mind and heart, and set us free to be the integrated persons we were always meant to be. There are general aspects of ‘Biocentrism’ (Robert Lanza, etc…) that I definitely find appealing, but a much deeper dive into the theory is needed to accept that our observations and consciousness itself, creates the universe around us. This does little to address the issues of ‘Theodicy’ on the human plain, and as to whether or not “Evil” and “Suffering” are a figmented projection of one’s own imagination.
Often in the charismatic worship of my church the spiritual experience is “thin” and I see lots of counterfeit spirituality activity going on … I get the depth of orthodoxy and Catholicism theological worlds, but I also sense the holy spirit in my church … it is their optimism that bothers me … that the world will truly become a better place … I am not convinced by this … I am prepared for things in the world to get worse not better … and that is why I think we truly need the communion of the saints … a true refuge … but there isn’t another space I can go to in my area … Jesus help me!