I struggle to see how participation can lead to bridging the gap, if I still don't believe in the ontological elements of something like icons, I can participate comfortably while personally acknowledging the artistic and symbolic meaning, but this doesn't seem to follow that this will lead me to truly believing in said ontological assertion behind the Orthodox view. And frankly I'm not sure yet that it matters, if they're right then absolutely it matters to bridge that gap and embrace the ontological truth, but if the Protestant perspective is correct, ontologically that is, that there is not some spiritual window to heaven there, only symbolic, then wouldn't it be wrong to try to convince yourself in some ontological belief.
Maybe my argument is simply I'm not convinced embracing EVERY ontological connection possible is wise, if some are inaccurate. This might be the case for some mainline 'believers' who find meaning in Jesus but don't believe in the ontological truth of his resurrection. But my belief is the primary distinction here is potentially just what may eventually be revealed to be ontologically correct someday. I do believe Jesus did that, but I don't believe icons are spiritual portals saints look through. Should I? Why?
When Jesus said to the Jews, who had ‘believed’ in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free,” I humbly suggest that he was saying to them, and is saying to us who believe with our heads (kinda sorta), if we in our daily, moment to moment, practice of reflecting His Love (the patience, kindness, not keeping records kind of love) to others, we will know the truth, and we will then be free from… well, everything. Free from fear, loneliness, death, all of the consequences of sin.
When I think of the word ‘believe’ less as something to wrap my head around and more like ‘loyalty’ to the One who is Love, my moral level is … better(?), even down to the words I say and the thoughts I think. I suppose you could ask my wife if this is true. And my ‘existential’ symbolic/religious layer is easier as it just makes more sense to me, as it becomes more about community than anything else. Finally, my connection to the Real is without doubt. I know my prayers ‘count’ because I know that I matter to the One who is Love himself.
Perhaps this is why some famous philosopher once said, “It is love that believes the resurrection”.
This is something very much connected to my comment yesterday re the implications of the Incarnation. Because Christ is both God and Man, the material can "bear" the weight of divinity, or "the heavenly" or "ontologic reality" being expressed through it, with the ability to encounter the divine through the materiality of the icon, or holy water or incense or other material thing. God created a material universe and entered into it. That means that our encounters with God aren't all in our heads. Unless we're convinced that "spiritual" really does mean "non-material". Then what? Yup, it's quite weird and unsettling for us Moderns.
Belief that something takes us to this magical world does change our experience. I saw this recently when I was down in the Amazon and spent time with people that have grown up in the small tribes in the jungle. Noises in the night are spirits, the jungle is made up of life from the beyond.... and I saw how it did enrich their lives. They are part of this greater, mysterious and magical place. Seeing the benefit, can I jump in? People often go down there to engage in the Ayahuasca ceremonies and this can take one there... certainly for a time. Is the icon any different than the belief in other pagan practices that lead to the heavens and the gods? Hm... Richard, you say that you have crossed into that mindset... and while I do believe in God and have faith that there is so much more, can we turn what we see, like an icon, into a more magical window to the heavens? As I see how amazing life is - creation, how animals find their way to their mate, find the one place they were born... how trees know to feed their sick neighbor.. or how our brains can match the brain of another, allowing for great empathy and attachment... all these things that also seem magical.... well, maybe that is a door.
I struggle to see how participation can lead to bridging the gap, if I still don't believe in the ontological elements of something like icons, I can participate comfortably while personally acknowledging the artistic and symbolic meaning, but this doesn't seem to follow that this will lead me to truly believing in said ontological assertion behind the Orthodox view. And frankly I'm not sure yet that it matters, if they're right then absolutely it matters to bridge that gap and embrace the ontological truth, but if the Protestant perspective is correct, ontologically that is, that there is not some spiritual window to heaven there, only symbolic, then wouldn't it be wrong to try to convince yourself in some ontological belief.
Maybe my argument is simply I'm not convinced embracing EVERY ontological connection possible is wise, if some are inaccurate. This might be the case for some mainline 'believers' who find meaning in Jesus but don't believe in the ontological truth of his resurrection. But my belief is the primary distinction here is potentially just what may eventually be revealed to be ontologically correct someday. I do believe Jesus did that, but I don't believe icons are spiritual portals saints look through. Should I? Why?
When Jesus said to the Jews, who had ‘believed’ in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free,” I humbly suggest that he was saying to them, and is saying to us who believe with our heads (kinda sorta), if we in our daily, moment to moment, practice of reflecting His Love (the patience, kindness, not keeping records kind of love) to others, we will know the truth, and we will then be free from… well, everything. Free from fear, loneliness, death, all of the consequences of sin.
When I think of the word ‘believe’ less as something to wrap my head around and more like ‘loyalty’ to the One who is Love, my moral level is … better(?), even down to the words I say and the thoughts I think. I suppose you could ask my wife if this is true. And my ‘existential’ symbolic/religious layer is easier as it just makes more sense to me, as it becomes more about community than anything else. Finally, my connection to the Real is without doubt. I know my prayers ‘count’ because I know that I matter to the One who is Love himself.
Perhaps this is why some famous philosopher once said, “It is love that believes the resurrection”.
This is something very much connected to my comment yesterday re the implications of the Incarnation. Because Christ is both God and Man, the material can "bear" the weight of divinity, or "the heavenly" or "ontologic reality" being expressed through it, with the ability to encounter the divine through the materiality of the icon, or holy water or incense or other material thing. God created a material universe and entered into it. That means that our encounters with God aren't all in our heads. Unless we're convinced that "spiritual" really does mean "non-material". Then what? Yup, it's quite weird and unsettling for us Moderns.
Dana
Belief that something takes us to this magical world does change our experience. I saw this recently when I was down in the Amazon and spent time with people that have grown up in the small tribes in the jungle. Noises in the night are spirits, the jungle is made up of life from the beyond.... and I saw how it did enrich their lives. They are part of this greater, mysterious and magical place. Seeing the benefit, can I jump in? People often go down there to engage in the Ayahuasca ceremonies and this can take one there... certainly for a time. Is the icon any different than the belief in other pagan practices that lead to the heavens and the gods? Hm... Richard, you say that you have crossed into that mindset... and while I do believe in God and have faith that there is so much more, can we turn what we see, like an icon, into a more magical window to the heavens? As I see how amazing life is - creation, how animals find their way to their mate, find the one place they were born... how trees know to feed their sick neighbor.. or how our brains can match the brain of another, allowing for great empathy and attachment... all these things that also seem magical.... well, maybe that is a door.